Incursion Class a discussion

[AslanC]

http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/mfwan/Incursion.htm

How viable is this craft?

Aside from the holographic imaging system that is essence a claoking device, what are you feelings on this ship?

[Karg]

I would say it's viable, sure. I'm sure holographic mater and image would be easier to detect by sensor than a cloaking field and thier is a high chance of an external emiter being hit in combat which would cause part of the image to degrade

[Sea Tyger]

It will take some reworking to get rid of the fanboy elements, but I should be able to turn it into a workable vessel.

I'll see what I can do when I get some time at the office Tuesday.

[KillerWhale]

I don't like the idea.

I think the reason why the Federation doesn't use cloaking technology is not only because of the Treaty, but because it's not their way of doing things. The Federation works in openness and peace, not in sneaking. Whether you call it cloaking or holomasking. The only way, IMO, that the Fed can use holomasking is when studying prewarp cultures.

Moreover, I don't see this working. How could holotechnology fool sensors? A hologram is picked up in seconds with a tricorder. I'd say sensors should be able to do it too.

Just my two cents

[Tobian]

I would have to agree with KW on that - It is a bit fanboy-ish too.

yes Section 31 might use simmilar technology for their ships (if any) but it's not going to be able to be used in ANY Starfleet based ship where the Treaty of Algeron exists - and if it doesn't - use a cloak!

The Holosuits we saw on insurection were clearly visible to the sensors of the monitoring station - it's just they weren't to the locals, which was the point! The ship was rather.... Visible to visual scans - so I would rate it no higher than the monotanium armour plating.

Long range warp signature displacement and signature profile masking are both things we have seen Starfleet do under stealth missions, so there's no reason you couldn't buy dedicated units (as an edge?) For that purpose - or just get Miles O'Brien on the job

It is fairly clear that the Federation is easilly capable of cloaking devices it is simply a question of that it does not make them!

[Snake_Plissken]

Speaking of Starfleet and cloaking devices, my favorite explanation for why Starfleet doesn't use cloaking devices was the FASA one: they didn't know how to build one! FASA assumed that overall the Federation had the upper hand technologically in most fields (indeed, in FASA Starfleet had the best engines, shields, etc) but that there were some fields where the Romulans (cloaking technology) and the Klingons (genetic manipulation- which was the FASA explanation for the ridge/no ridge Klingon thing) were actually more advanced. Of course TNG made all of those ideas obsolete.

I really like the concept of Starfleet not being able to figure out how to make a CD- as the 'know-it-all' FED factor a la Wesley irritates me.

[Sea Tyger]

Okay, here goes:

By its description, the ship is a straight up Defiant-class heavy escort, it seems, with a special quality.

To simulate this fanboy effect in game terms, I'd use:

1) Mono-refractive Plating
2) Blind Luck (MRP), to give it the fanboy advantages described in the text
3) Vulnerable System (Operations), following the Defiant's lead
4) Battle Scarred (MRP)

Net Cost: 0 space

Since the masking device doesn't actually render the ship "invisible," the MRP was a better fit than a full-on cloaking device. The mimicking ability of the plating (along with the warp signature mimicker and long-range sensor bore) is covered in the Blind Luck edge. Of course, the nice thing about using blind luck is that you can take away that infernal fanboy effect when you fudge the roll of doubles on its first use.

I agree with the last three posts in that I would never allow such an effect in my game, although I think that they explained it enough to be "technologically" feasible at long-range (i.e., the same "sensor bore" effect of the device would negate the target's ability to notice the holographic nature of the visual masking system). I'd say the holographic nature of the system would be easily recognizable at PB and short range, negating the special effects of the Blind Luck edge (although the MRP would still be active).

[redwood973]

May be the Federation does not have cloak technology. A few well placed (false) reports in the right hands, a ship or two re-assigned to R&D but no one knowing for sure where they are and with a little dumb luck your false intelligence may lead the Romulans to believe you have the capability to make a cloak.

May be the Federation signed the treaty never having the ability to make a cloak, the Romulans just believed they could. And since most treaties are give and take: the Federation lost the ability to make cloaks (something they could not make anyway) and in return got [incert whatever the Feds. received] from the Romulans.

Starfleet R&D was not responsible for the one cloak the Federation produced. . .that was Intelligence (perhaps Sec. 31?).

[clpatrick7]

Wasn't the Incursion class featured in the PC game
"Away Team" and in the begining movie it was useing
the holoemiters to pass itself off as a warbird and fly
right up to a romulan warbird with no problems.
So it passed itself off at point blank range.

Oh well it is a PC game

Chris

[Tobian]

I think since the treaty with the Klingons it's unfeasible to suggest the federation don't understand about claking technology. For example Worf in generations knew exactly how that old Bird of Prey's cloaking device worked, and in DS9 - O'brien (The ultimate 'make a phaser using bear skins and stone knives' technohead) must have built and rebuilt that Romulan cloaking device ont he Defiant more than a dozen times.. Not to mention Rom's claked mines.... The weight of evidence is now slightly overwealming.. That said a Small federation Starship holocloaked as a Warbird slightly beggars beleif!

[Snake_Plissken]

I think since the treaty with the Klingons it's unfeasible to suggest the federation don't understand about claking technology

you have to remember that FASA only covered TOS and the Kirk-era movies. Up until then the theory about the Federation not having CDs because they didn't know how to make one held up. FASA also used the 'Enterprise Incident' TOS ep as a basis for the argument. That's the ep where Kirk steals a CD from the Romulans. As I said, the theory was totally anhiliated by TNG and the later shows. As a side note, FASA had also decided that while Klingons had CDs, they had no idea how to build them and all of their CDs were supplied by the Romulans.

[kalamaro]

USS Incursion

Production Data
Origin: Federation
Class and Type: Defiant class (Modified)
Year Launched: 2377

Hull Data
Structure: 30 (5 ablative armor)
Size/Decks: 5/4 decks
Length/Beam/Height: 119/25/90 meters
Complement: 40

Operational Data
Atmosphere Capable
Transporters: 1 standard, 1 emergency
Cargo Units: 50
Shuttlebay: 1 af
Shuttlecraft: 5 size worth
Tractor Beams: 1AV, 1FV
Separation System: No
Sensor System: Class 2(+2/C)
Operations System: Class 2 (C)
Life Support: Class 2 (C)
Holographic Masking System

Propulsion Data
Impulse System: FIG-2 (.9c) (C)
Warp System: LF-35 (6/9.2/9982) (C)

Tactical Data
Phasers : Type XII (x2/c)
Penetration: 5/3/3/0/0
Torpedo Launchers : Mk 75 (x2/c)
Quantum Penetration: 6/6/6/6/6
Deflector Shield: FSQ (D)
Protection/Threshold: 17/4

Miscellaneous Data
Maneuvering: +0C/+3H/+3T
Trait : Ablative Armor, Design Flaw (Warp Drive), Pulse Upgrade, Vulnerate system (System Operation)


Holographic Masking System : see spacedock for rules save space. Space = size

[Capt. K. Vaughn]

While I have no problem with the idea that Starfleet may have some ships dedicated purely to stealth operations given the evidence in various shows that the technology does exist, I would have a problem with that tech working all the time without flaws being there.

I've used technology like that in my USS Intrepid FASA campaign but it was used only as a last resort as it was very difficult to use and often only gave a few seconds advantage. In fact, I dropped the tech entirely when I switched to LUG until Spacedock came out. Even with it again being available, I have not used it to date.

My explanation for why the Federation does not use cloaks on a regular basis above and beyond the Treaty is simply this: "The principles behind the cloaking effect is not generally compatible with Federation technology and can place the crew of the vessel it is used on in danger." in some ways similar to the Philadelphia Experiment. Starfleet felt the risks were too great, especially once the data from the Pegasus was recovered. The use of a cloaking device would only be considered when events came to a point where extreme measures would be required. This explained the cloak on the Defiant in my universe and the two campaign exceptions.

The two exceptions in my universe where cloaking devices were able to be adapted in such a manner that the risks were minimal were the Challenger campaign and the Voden campaign run by a friend of mine. The Voden has since been destroyed and the Challenger adapted the cloak recovered from the Pegasus. None of the ships since have had cloaking devices and the Challenger is currently believed destroyed by Starfleet.

In the case of the Challenger campaign, the Romulans agreed that it would be allowable to install the cloak on the Challenger and in the case of the Voden, the ship was destroyed before the Romulans ever learned of it.

Starfleet, with the war's end and as part of the agreement with the Romulan Empire does not plan to install any more devices in either of these classes which were the only two long-term success cases besides the Defiant in all the experiments ever conducted. Whether it was simply those ships and crews or something in their design that allowed the cloak to function will never likely be discovered.

Will Starfleet Intelligence continue to pursue other avenues of stealth technology, certainly. Will I make certain there are drawbacks to whatever system is employed, yes.

The concept behind that ship has certainly been done before and while I will go out there for allowing some pretty whacked-out designs, it is a too uber even for me. I'd seriously tone down the abilities, maybe even make it far more an aspect of the crew pulling off a trick as we saw in the one episode of TNG where Worf fooled the Ferengi with his sensor imaging...but that is just me.

I presume though that you would be using CODA for this though?

Regards,
CKV.

[kalamaro]

Dear Capt. K. Vaughn and the other

U.S.S. Incursion is a prototype use exclusively by starfleet inteligence.

The holographic masking technology isn't a cloacking device. Is a MASKING device.

If the "invisible man" like cloacking device, holographic masking technology like "impossible mission" mask

The goal of this technology isn't to hide but to impersonate a ship with a combinaison of three different technics.

I also think the monotanium plating isn't compatible

So, this post is a little............................................ ........like chaos. I'm sorry is 03h40 and i go working this saturday morning.

@+
kalamaro, le poulpe de l'espace qui se prend pour un d'deridex

[Capt. K. Vaughn]

I have no issue with masking technology, it exists in one form or another. Sure one can fake a warp signature and even an IFF, one could also be fooled visually as such with the proper technology but it would require a fair amount more in my mind to fool other ship's sensors especially over a prolonged period of time or in close proximity.

Do I think it is possible to do so, certainly. Do I think it would be quite difficult, absolutely.

YMMV.

Regards,
CKV.