Sniper in Star Trek

[IKI]

I've looked and didn't find any proffesion or Elite proffesion that have sniper related Tiers.

I think that the Special Forces or Assasin Elite profession should have some sort of sniper Tiers so I was thinking of adding some of the LORT Archer Tiers to these elite professions: Deadly shot, Far shot, Mighty Shot, and Swift Shot.

Is this a good idea or not?
Or are these games to different that this is not really possible?

[Jem'hadar]

I think your ideas are good about adapting material from LOTR RPG.

However, I doubt Starfleet has Special Forces (at least not the way modern militaries do) or condones assassination, so there may be no snipers, at least officially, in Starfleet. Nevertheless, there probably are individuals w/i Starfleet who are naturally crack shots. Although the advanced technology & power of a Federation phaser rifle makes marksmanship that much easier.

Of course, a phaser rifle would not be ideal for a sniper weapon b/c it would be too easy to see where the energy beam originated, thus exposing the sniper. For sniping, you would probably want a weapon that is either more primitive, i.e. projectile weapon, or one that has an invisible energy beam.

I also doubt Klingons have a snipers as their warfare culture prefers facing their enemies directly & openly, preferably hand-to-hand, rather than killing opponents from a distance & w/ no chance of defense.

Of course, other militaries, such as Romulans, Breen, etc may certainly have & support snipers & assassins.

[The Tatterdemalion King]

Hmm.

I imagine teleportation technology makes a lot of regular sniper tactics obsolete–the Dominion War sourcebook has some things like self-transporting artillery.

And also shields. They'll screw with stuff too.

[LUGTrekGM]

My thoughts on this are:

If the assault can beam down on target, with an essentially unlimited number of troops, given enough time, no need for snipers, just beam down the army.

If the target is tougher, it will be softened up by orbital bombardment.

If the target can sense life forms at ranges of kilometers, snipers cannot close to effective range.

One use i can see for a sniper would be a hostage situation / Standoff, in a city, but still, beaming in by a few dozen security guys in security armor with weapons would more or less nullify that, as would wide angle stun, from a ship, say in a few blocks radius.

Only if you had some deal where there were hostages inside a shielded area, with hostage takers heavily armed, for some type of political goal, since money doesn't exist, right? Hey, what a scenario.

You might have a case for one or more snipers with that setup. However, given okay, by Era, Betazoid mind reading, etc. ... well, it sounds like an interesting scenario.

But it seems like unless you got some kind of Tal Shiar / Obsidian Order op going on inside Fed space, most bad guys are gonna be off on the frontier, pirating mining ships, or something, and definitely dodging anything like a Starship's crew, or anywhere near where one could be deployed.

*shrugs*

Run in LUG trek, though, a guy who has Energy Weapon (phaser rifle) 5 (6), and 3 courage to spend per round, or from advantages could smoke up a bad guy, pretty well.

[Tobian]

Well the sniper/assassin career doesn't have to be a Starfleet profession (though technically you can't have it if you are in Starfleet, as you can only have 2 professions at once!) So there's no real reason to not invent one for Coda!

With regards to the era - there are quite a few situations being a good marksman is still useful. For one there are anti-transporter fields/shields, and in trek the long range of tuned weapons is several kilometres, so seeing a beam may not be an issue! Justifying it in Starfleet would be tough, and it's the call of the GM, but technically the Officer career is also a template for Klingons, Romulans and other spacefaring races, which may not have such compunctions (especially Romulans and Cardassians!) So I don't see a harm with developing a professional tree for it, maybe an 'officer' and an 'elite profession' as 2 separate sub-classes (Many careers share professional skill trees).

One thing that's not really covered in the core rules is any kind of special agent, for either starfleet inteligence, or Section 31. In a way it's good, because if my players had access to it, they WOULD use it *cough* Munchkins *cough*, but still I would like rules for them!

[Ergi]

I imagine teleportation technology makes a lot of regular sniper tactics obsolete–the Dominion War sourcebook has some things like self-transporting artillery.

Which is totally useless, if the enemy employs transporter scramblers or shields to protect vital areas. Of course, shields would represent a major obstacle for snipers, too, but since shield generators (capable of protecting a large area against attacks from all directions) don't appear to be as portable as transporter scramblers, shielding is probably reserved for fortified, permanent facilities.

Out in the field, however, where the enemy is restricted to using transporter scramblers, to prevent at least surprise visits by beaming-in opposing troops, a sniper could excel.

If the assault can beam down on target, with an essentially unlimited number of troops, given enough time, no need for snipers, just beam down the army.

If the target is tougher, it will be softened up by orbital bombardment.

Not even the Dominion had an unlimited number of troops. To other armies, recruiting, training, and equipping their infantrymen will be even more difficult, and will take much more time.

Two points you also seem to take for granted are air (/space) superiority and availability of transport vessels. An experienced enemy will do his best, to prevent both.

Orbital bombardment, also requiring air superiority, might also not always be an option. The Federation might be bound by the 24th century equivalent of the Geneva Convention, but other species might see nothing wrong in positioning their forces in densely populated areas, say the ground floor of a 100-story apartment building. -> No more planetary bombardment for Starfleet.

If the target can sense life forms at ranges of kilometers, snipers cannot close to effective range.

That is a potential problem for all ground units, and probably the reason why jamming the enemy's sensors is such a popular tactic (as seen in The Siege of AR-558). Of course, sensor jamming will always alert the enemy, that opposing forces are in the area. Therefore, sniper teams will most likely be given more covert means to prevent detection. (For example portable thoron generators, as used by Ensign Suder in Basics , Part II.)
Then, a sniper team would be capable to performing the same tasks as they did in the past - weakening enemy morale and creating confusion by killing high-ranking officers, maybe even in areas the enemy considers safe (as in the excellent Space - Above and Beyond episode Who monitors the Birds? ).

[Tobian]

Excellent points Ergi, however those snipers may still not be actual officers, but crewmen and professional 'soldiers' drawn from planetary militias etc. Along side Starfleet, which was responsible for space, without being drawn into the Marine debate, there would be regular 'soldiers' fighting in the Dominion war. Judging from the ridiculously elitist choosing method for getting officers in Starfleet, and the existence of other Non-com's I would assume that ground battles would be manned by lots of non commissioned people, and a few officers to hold them together, as with today's armies.

It's annoying but there's not an easy way to build non-commissioned officers and crew sing Coda, or a clear path for PC's (as it's not important for NPC's)!

[Pericles]

Well based on the DS9 episode with the crazed serial killer using a projectile weapon with a integrated bloody mini transporter to beam the bullet a foot in front of the target, who bloody needs a sniper? All you need is access to the replicator pattern for the rifle and you can sit anywhere and pick people off at will without any special training at all.

[Tobian]

Well of course it's handy, but then it'll be kyboshed by any anti-transporter/sensor technology in the area, especially now it's a known entity. During the episode they had no idea how it was being done, so they couldn't counter it!

[stule]

Not trying to get flamed by anyone but on Enterprise (no flaming me about that show) they do have an episode where they use a Sniper (or at least he uses a scope). Unfortunately this was before the formation of the Federation.

The Federation (IMO) would not have snipers. Just isn't kosher with their squeaky clean good guy image.

Now as for Section 31, it doesn't exist.
If it did, they would most definitely have snipers, assassins, use transporter teck in naughty ways, torture, wipe out an entire race using biological warfare. Nice thing about this organization is that they are as every bit as wicked as modern day spy agencies.
This might actually help you.
If they actually existed.

(wink)



Oh and as for CODA, when my group played it, we incorporated both rule systems. We used LOTR for the Holodeck for really cool medieval games and they still played there Star Trek characters. They even began spending their advancements on Sword combat and the like. But then I got into LUG, and to be honest, I like that system a wee bit more than CODA. It has more of a Star Trek feel, especially the combat. Your entire group has to work together in combat and everyone has something to do.

[Pericles]

Well of course it's handy, but then it'll be kyboshed by any anti-transporter/sensor technology in the area, especially now it's a known entity. During the episode they had no idea how it was being done, so they couldn't counter it!

No argument that anti-transporter tech would prevent the use of the rifle as presented in the episode, but going by how unknown the weapon was even to Starfleet officers, I don't think knowledge of this weapon is widespread. Even if it was, you can't cover everything with dampening fields all the time, so the sniper with the transporter would still be very useful.

I do agree however, that a Sniper just doesn't fit the image of Starfleet or the Klingons. The Romulans and Cardassians on the other hand would have no problem with snipers or any other form of assassination.

[IKI]

My thoughts on this are:

If the assault can beam down on target, with an essentially unlimited number of troops, given enough time, no need for snipers, just beam down the army.

If the target is tougher, it will be softened up by orbital bombardment.

If the target can sense life forms at ranges of kilometers, snipers cannot close to effective range.

One use i can see for a sniper would be a hostage situation / Standoff, in a city, but still, beaming in by a few dozen security guys in security armor with weapons would more or less nullify that, as would wide angle stun, from a ship, say in a few blocks radius.

Only if you had some deal where there were hostages inside a shielded area, with hostage takers heavily armed, for some type of political goal, since money doesn't exist, right? Hey, what a scenario.

You might have a case for one or more snipers with that setup. However, given okay, by Era, Betazoid mind reading, etc. ... well, it sounds like an interesting scenario.

But it seems like unless you got some kind of Tal Shiar / Obsidian Order op going on inside Fed space, most bad guys are gonna be off on the frontier, pirating mining ships, or something, and definitely dodging anything like a Starship's crew, or anywhere near where one could be deployed.

I know that most technology makes his sort of thing absolte but like you said it Hostage situation are a perfect example for the use of a sniper.
It is also has the advantage to create a sort of fear: remember the sniper who randomley killed victims while they where doing their every day stuff. At the end every body starts to feel afraid of even comming out. And that is acheived by only one highly trained man. The sniper is also good at shooting that one man in the entire group, without killing the entire group. this can also be done by a sniper, and is impossible to achieve by using heavy weapon like bombardments.
You right however that it is not very starfleet like, but they have some sort of military as well and I think that during the Dominon war Federation sniper become a lot more common.

Oh and as for CODA, when my group played it, we incorporated both rule systems. We used LOTR for the Holodeck for really cool medieval games and they still played there Star Trek characters. They even began spending their advancements on Sword combat and the like. But then I got into LUG, and to be honest, I like that system a wee bit more than CODA. It has more of a Star Trek feel, especially the combat. Your entire group has to work together in combat and everyone has something to do.

I do not really know the ICON system that good. I have only the TNG and Deep space nine handbook. And after looking at the combat section I don't find it that impressive. As with CODA (ecxept for the Starfleet operation manual) they dont have rules for disarming or coverfire, or any of these enhanced combat maneuvers. Or do they have soem other rules conserning that in other ICON books?

[stule]

Don't get me wrong, CODA is a blast to play. Love the system. But to be honest I found the Starship rules a little weak. As for combat, I use alot of house rules even in ICON (Just as I did in CODA).

I use the CODA Mook rules (1,2,3 hit villains).

Phasers stun or do damage. When a Phaser set on stun hits you, your stun. That's it. No resists rolls or nothing in my game. And at a certain setting, Phasers just disintegrate you, no damamge roll required.

I would say that in CODA is better for abstract games. ICON is more for technical games IMO. I am slowly building myself up to be able to use Spacedock but so far I really like the Starship Combat in ICON.

If you like CODA, stick with it. It's what I started playing and I love it (grab the LOTR rules if you can!). But I like a wee bit more structure in my games and ICON gives me that, and it allows my players to suceed a little bit more (Dramatic Success are easier to get in ICON).

[wolfe]

A sniper not part of starfleet?
against their squeeky clean good guy image?
LOL

you guys have a bad short sighted understanding of the sniper (no offense)(though Ergi and IKI seems to have covered a few good points)
they don't just kill folks, they are a primary source of intel on the field, MOST missions today in the field the sniper doesn't even fire a shot.
The only time the sniper is firing is on interdiction missions.

you don't have to kill a person to achieve the mission, some misions the target isn't even a person.

the fact that starfleet would even build the TR-116 rifle throws the squeeky clean good guys image right out the window.

Theres only one reason why one would even consider building such a weapon.

theres a HUGE difference between regular forces sniper, special forces sniper and the special operations sniper.
folks think regular sniper qualifications are tough, SOTIC (Special Operations Target Interdiction Course) makes it look like basic training *yawn is it over yet.

but then it'll be kyboshed by any anti-transporter/sensor technology in the area, especially now it's a known entity. During the episode they had no idea how it was being done, so they couldn't counter it!

snipers have been in existance for how long again? I have yet to see any forward position made "sniper proof" no big thick walls of armor, no ground radar, no hordes of mine fields covering the areas where a sniper would use..

just because its known to exist, it doesn't mean it can be countered by everyone everytime.
sure your paranoid big badguy would most likely have such things set up, but the vorta controllingthe dominion troops on the field would very most likely wouldn't.

the best counter sniper in the dominion arsenal would be the Jem'Hadar themself.
no need to eat or sleep and can shroud at will, they are a snipers worst nightmare, the only weakness is the need for the white.

also doubt Klingons have a snipers as their warfare culture prefers facing their enemies directly & openly, preferably hand-to-hand, rather than killing opponents from a distance & w/ no chance of defense.

that right there pretty much goes against the existance of the cloaking device then.

imagine teleportation technology makes a lot of regular sniper tactics obsolete

very short sighted again, the transporter would increase the capabilities of the sniper by leaps and bounds.
one could literally transport into (and out of) the desired position.

That is a potential problem for all ground units, and probably the reason why jamming the enemy's sensors is such a popular tactic (as seen in The Siege of AR-558). Of course, sensor jamming will always alert the enemy, that opposing forces are in the area.

if your going to activily jam the sensors you might as well just light off fireworks right over your position call yourself gomergump and take yourself right out of the genepool, but then you never would have passed sniper qualification with thinking like that.

but how many times have they used systems to trick sensors into thinking nobody is there/nothing is wrong ?

there is where the sniper would go for his hiding advantage.

It's like our Thellie suits today you aren't finding us using most thermals, but the sniper in just a regular ghillie suit stands out like a beacon.

look at that suit Data wore in Insurrection, snipers today would kill for that suit.
That would easily be part of the snipers standard kit loadout in Startrek.
every time theres headway in detecting the sniper, the means to camoflauge catch up and the lovely circle continues.

I know that most technology makes his sort of thing absolte

that type of thinking just gets people killed by the sniper.


basically If snipers in your game just shoot and kill people all you did was just make a simple squad marksman.

[LUGTrekGM]

I think it was a discussion on how technology would affect tactics, not on how little us non snipers actually know about it.

Thanks loads for clearing that up, at least for me.